Inspection objection deadline

[boxofdelights]

We saw the house again.

The inspector got into the attic, where he found 1.no recent leaks, 2.no insulation whatsoever, 3.knob-and-tube wiring.

The furnace and AC work when you find the hidden thermostat. The gas fireplace works when you light the pilot.

The electrician said there's no way to install GFCIs with this ancient electrical panel. Also the 'double-tapping' the inspector noted is seriously, uh, problematic: they've got the 20-amp AC wire tapped into the 100-amp main circuit breaker.

Bids from the electrician:
$1950 for
- new 100 amp electrical panel
- Kitchen & bathroom GFCI circuits
- 2 wired-in smoke/carbon monoxide detectors at bedrooms, 1 wired-in smoke detector in basement stairs
- bathroom exhaust fan
- Fix wiring in basement
- Change exterior box to new weather-proof box

$4000 to replace knob-and-tube

Bid for the HVAC:
$194 to
- Clean and service furnace and A/C.
- Add a 6" firestop to flue, fix top door on furnace.

Bid from the plumber:
$0. He diagnosed a clogged filter, unscrewed it, cleaned it, put it back on, and refused to charge me anything.

Bid for the gutters:
$1391.60 However, he said, if I clear away the vegetation on the house and replace the cove molding with nice flat 2x6, I should call him back to get a lower bid.

This weekend, the sellers plan to make several dump runs. Monday we'll get to see inside the garage and shed, and we'll get bids for insulation and exterior painting. Then we have to give the sellers our request-to-fix.

Beth (my REALTOR®) proposed asking them to fix the sliding door lock, make the wood windows operable, and credit me $4000 in lieu of fixing everything else.

Hugh thought I should at least ask them to pay for all the electric. He said I should find out whether the knob-and-tube (with one not-up-to-code splice) would prevent another buyer from getting a mortgage.

Beth called her mortgage guy, who said the knob-and-tube might be a problem, depending on the appraiser, but the lack of gutters and peeling exterior paint would be a problem.

So I'm thinking of asking them for $6000 in lieu. Hugh says the worst they can do is say no. But what if they'd say yes to $4000, but $6000 makes them say no?

Comments

[rozasharn.livejournal.com]

In my part of the country, the insurance companies absolutely refuse to insure a house with any knob-and-tube wiring anywhere in it. The mortgage companies, in turn, won't mortgage an uninsured house. So over here, the wiring would absolutely need to be replaced; I don't know about your state, but finding out would be a very good idea.

[brisingamen.livejournal.com]

I have never seen anything like knob-and-tube wiring in the UK. Fascinating. Scary, dangerous ... fascinating.

[rivka.livejournal.com]

Then they will make a counteroffer.

You're willing to buy a house in the worst market in decades. They will work with you.

[cakmpls.livejournal.com]

That was my response, too.

[randomdreams.livejournal.com]

She's buying in a market that isn't very saggy. The house I put on the market sold in 21 days for $10k less than my asking price, and I'm selling in a somewhat crummy part of big ugly Denver, not a rather lovely part of hip, happening Fort Collins.

[baratron.livejournal.com]

But what if they'd say yes to $4000, but $6000 makes them say no?

They can negotiate with you. Or haggle :)

You're a serious buyer. You're not freaked out by the state of the house. You just want it fixed so it's safe and conforms to law. They should be willing to work with you.

[beaq.livejournal.com]

Eeee.

The scary parts! When flaws arise! And we fear! And we hope! And we just want the damn house already!

[fourgates.livejournal.com]

Thoughts-in-a-pile: "Double-tapping" and running a 20-Amp AC circuit directly to the 100-Amp breaker are separate problems. The double-tapping thing really depends on how many receptacles or lights are on the shared lines. You're not supposed to have more than 12 items on a circuit, but two lines with 6 each is the same potential load. The AC circuit is the most worrisome part of the whole list you mentioned. I don't think (but don’t really know) knob-and-tube for houses was designed for 20-Amp loads, and in my guessing opinion, overloading is the main potential cause of problems (putting modern loads on old wiring), and less so with incidental contact to exposed wire. I'm not sure of that though.
Modern building code requires Arc-fault circuit interrupters in living areas, not just GFCIs. I don’t think those are required for old houses, but they cut the fire risk by something like 1/3. They’re $30-$40 per circuit. Also, modern code requires two separate circuits for kitchen receptacles and a separate circuit for the refrigerator.
None of the prices quoted seems unreasonable.
Making wood windows operable sounds like a practically impossible request. That said, if you say it's worth a lot to you, perhaps that adds weight to your request for more money off.
You didn't mention the type of plumbing. I would assume from the age of the other stuff that you have galvanized steel water pipes. In my experience these basically shrink in internal diameter as the get clogged up with gunk. In fact I'd say that I haven't found any that have good water pressure. Some people consider the presence of galvanized steel water pipes to be a negative, like knob-and-tube electricals or single-pane windows.
Speaking of single-pane windows, I don't think you mentioned what kind of windows it has. I would assume that any house that has no insulation or single pane windows or both will feel cold, no matter how much heat you throw at it. So that makes me think that you may eventually want to replace the windows, get some insulation in there, or both.
more...

[randomdreams.livejournal.com]

I agree with the wood windows request. I don't think that's happening for love or money: that takes months of paint stripping, wood shaping, sanding, and hard work.

Likewise the water pipes. Galv rusts to have the ID of a pencil or less.

[fourgates.livejournal.com]

With a house that old you probably have lead paint, thought it might be painted over.
All of this makes me think that you may feel compelled to do or have done some more extensive renovations, involving opening walls. If you gut the walls, you can do all of it at once more easily. Gutting some rooms may allow you to do things that affect more than just one room. For example, gutting a bathroom may allow you to get access to all of the kitchen’s plumbing, if they share a wet wall, which is often the case. Or you could more easily install modern electrical outlets for one wall of adjacent rooms.
If it were soon to be my house, I’d be thinking of this plan:
- Replace the service panel with 100 or 200-Amp panel immediately. If you get a 200-Amp panel you’ll need a new line run from the street, but then you can go crazy with lots of circuits like isolated-ground single-purpose circuits for computers.
- Run a new line for the air conditioner immediately.
- Separate the double-taps immediately.
- Make a circuit map to get sense of the total load (after the double-taps are separated) on each circuit now in place. Fix any screaming potential overloads with new circuits, but leave the others to wait for more extensive renovations.
- Get an estimate of what it would cost to replace all galvanized plumbing with copper, CPVC, or Pex. I’d recommend Pex.
- Make a plan to re-do each of the rooms, probably starting with the bedrooms, in rotation.
My guess is that you could probably get one bedroom done for the ~$2000 you’d save by not doing all of the other electrical at the same time.
While I’m at it I have to say that I think you could do all of these renovations yourself after the new service panel is installed, with some study and coaching.

[fourgates.livejournal.com]

Other random thoughts: just for reference, I would bet that at least half of our neighborhood in Scarborough has knob-and-tube wiring. I don't get the sense that it prevents people from getting mortgages or insurance up here.

Your bargaining position is strong by virtue of the market situation, but also by the fact that the seller is probably strongly motivated. The equity in that house is probably needed to take care of the former resident, so they'll want it ASAP.

[randomdreams.livejournal.com]

Knob-and-tube isn't great, but it's not bad. It was a reasonably effective way of wiring houses. It beats the daylights out of 1950's fabric-based romex, which *is* dangerous because it breaks down and shorts and sparks, and late 1960's aluminum wiring, that can likewise cause fires. The main issues with knobntube are that it isn't rated for high current so you probably don't want to be running a microwave using it, and usually subsequent modifications to it did, indeed, use either fabric romex or aluminum, depending on when they were installed.
With all that said, if someone quotes you $4k to rewire your house, that's an incredibly good deal. I mean 'incredibly' in its literal sense: I find it unbelievable that anyone would quote that. But if someone does, hey, cool. I usually expect house rewiring to run over $10k.

You want insulation, but you can do that yourself fairly inexpensively. Put down one layer between the existing joists, same height as them, then another two good thick layers, like 18" total, over that. It'll make an enormous difference both in winter and in summer.

I renovated a house in the area you're buying once upon a time. It had knob-and-tube, and we left that. The problem was, again, where subsequent people had connected into it and run fabric romex in metal conduit down to new outlets. If you touched anything, even plugging stuff in, the broken-down romex would short with a POP and you'd blow a breaker. Horrible. We ripped out the new(er) stuff and wired in modern romex to the old knob-and-tube, save for dedicated lines to the kitchen to handle the heavy draw.

We also redid the sash windows. It took both of us roughly 25 hours, working on each window, to get off all the layers of old paint, down in the knobbly bits, and get the windows sliding again, at which point the house had leaky, drafty, single-pane windows through which the winter cold screeched, but at least they worked and they weren't godawful. If they say they'll fix the windows, they're daft or wildly optimistic.

If you have AC and a microwave, I think you need more than 100A service. Those two and one hairdryer gets you right up against exceeding the total service to the whole house.

[dracunculus.livejournal.com]

The house we're buying has knob and tube wiring. Our inspection noted that while this is an older method of wiring, it's not inherently unsafe and doesn't need to be replaced immediately (they recommended upgrading it over time as other maintenance projects were completed). We also asked our contractor about it and he said "I have knob and tube wiring in my house." At least in our area lenders don't have any problem with that kind of wiring, and you don't necessarily need to replace it all if you don't want to.