Ask me three times

[boxofdelights]

This post on boundaries reminds me how very glad I am that most of my adult life is spent among people for whom You have the right to say no is the norm. At Wiscon, when I offered my chocolate-covered mango[*] to everyone in the conversational grouping, the decision to offer was mine, all mine, mine by right and also because I was in the best position to know whether or not I wanted to share; and the decision to accept or not was theirs, each of theirs, and if they needed any help deciding from me they would ask, for example, what kind of chocolate?

This way works so well that I really do not understand why other people do it differently.

I found, on Google groups, a post I wrote years ago on interacting with my in-laws, who came from cultures where, if you're the host, you have to offer everything three times, and if you're the guest, you have to wait for the third offer before you accept. I'm very shy, and very introverted, and kind of crap at communication at the best of times, so I spent a lot of my time with them thinking OH GOD TALKING SO HARD AND, WHEN YOU'RE AROUND, SO MUCH OF IT DO WE REALLY HAVE TO GO OVER THIS AGAIN? AND AGAIN? CAN I GO HOME NOW PLEASE OR CAN YOU GO HOME NOW PLEASE NO MORE TALKING TO ME PLEASE PLEASE? But besides that, I felt so disrespected every time they responded to my "no, thank you" by repeating the offer, and so disrespectful every time I had to make myself repeat an offer that they had just turned down.

My mother-in-law is the kind of woman who will let you know that she would like the window closed by exclaiming "My! What a nice fresh breeze!" If you don't catch on to that, all she can do is restate it more emphatically: "*What* a nice fresh *breeze*!" If you ask directly, "Would you like the window closed?" she has to exclaim, "Oh, no! I don't want to tell you what to do in your own house!"

(She really *doesn't* want to tell me what to do; she could bring herself that close to asking only because she has Meuniere's Disease, so the breeze was making her unbearably dizzy.)

I figured out the "Offer three times" rule after several years of puzzled observation (and what a barbarian she must have thought me all those times I offered to help only once!) It's still difficult for me to apply. Not taking no for an answer feels like disrespecting her.

So when I offer her something to eat and she says, "Oh no, I had a big breakfast, I couldn't eat a bite," I have to go do something else until I can pretend that some time has passed. By the time I work myself up to the third offer, she is practically fainting with hunger and willing to admit that she wouldn't mind a little -- just a little! -- something.

Sometimes I can speed things up a bit by nudging my partner or child to go make the second offer. Sometimes I just put food on the table and announce that it's time for lunch. Sometimes I can get her to accept a drink on the second offer by saying "It's very important to keep yourself hydrated to prevent altitude sickness, especially in this aridity." Is that the sort of shortcircuit you mean?

I always feel as though she's expecting me to dance a little gavotte with her -- advance - retreat - advance - touch hands - retreat - advance - bow - then you can progress through the figure -- while I am tromping across the dance floor, hay foot, straw foot, if you want to get from point A to point B why would you *not* take the most direct route?

I wouldn't mind learning to be a little less clumsy.

[*]Not a euphemism.

Comments

[jinian]

I think of that old post whenever this topic comes up, though memory had diluted it to make your mother-in-law less extreme than you're actually describing.

[ravenna_c_tan]

Oh god, if I had in-laws or family members like that, I think I'd go mad. No wait, I *do* have relatively like that, but I don't interact with them very often. Probably because I feel like they come from another planet. I thank the stars every day that my mother is a no-nonsense cut-to-the-chase sort of person, and so she clears out all the family bullshit like a relentless god-sent machete. Among themselves the hemmers and hawers in the family probably still act like that but no one dares play these kind of "unwritten rules of politeness" games when she's around. My father, who grew up the eldest son in a Chinese household riddled with unwritten rules, gleefully dropped all that in order to Americanize, too. He's sort of like Mr. Spock. He doesn't show much emotion, but he will give you a straight answer to any question. And he'll accept whatever answer you gave. Whereas my mother is quite emotionally engaging, but she's very honest with her emotions. She doesn't "act" happy or horrified or whatever politeness would require, she gives her honest reaction.

As an adult I've surrounded myself with geeks and fandom folk and have learned also that my own introversion is strong and when not to push myself.

Sorry, this reply turned into much longer than I thought it would. I meant to say: yes, this. :-)

[emceeaich]

Those mangoes, by the way, were awesome. Thank you again for sharing them.

[amaebi]

They were. Staggering.

[jesse_the_k]

I'm sorry I missed them, and thank you for sharing them.

[loligo]

We ran into culture clashes like this with my late step-father, who was old-school European in his manners. For example, at the dinner table, he considered it terribly rude to ever reach outside of his small square of table, so he was forever asking people to pass everything to him, even stuff that was easily within his reach. But that politeness norm always felt rude to me, because everyone else had to keep interrupting their meal to pass him things he could have gotten himself.

[kaigou]

This is one behavior I actually prefer when eating with a large group that I don't entirely know well (like extended family). Having to ask for someone to pass something creates at least a small bubble of conversation such that the table isn't completely drowned in uncomfortable silence. (This is especially important amongst my father's family, who tend to be stoic introverts who'd eat in complete silence if left to their own devices.)

[kaigou]

My grandmother did a variation of that, but without the denial once you asked. I recall once when she was visiting, she said, "my, how hot it is today." My sister and I agreed, she repeated, and we agreed again (we were probably in grade school), and just thought Gramma was being wierd. Finally, when Mom walked in, Gramma told her we were quite rude for not getting her a drink. When we protested, saying Gramma hadn't asked for a drink, she'd only said it was hot... my mom said, "Mother, I'm not raising my children to be mind-readers. If you want a drink, ASK for it." Gramma was quite put-out, and insisted that it wasn't something she should have had to ask for -- we should have offered before she said anything.

In hindsight, although I understand my mother's position that if you want something, open your mouth and ask... I also understand better, now, the role of the host in anticipating a guest's potential needs, such that no such dance is required. With some guests, thus, I'll ask, "would you like anything to drink," and list what we have... and with others (who are more tending to prevaricate), I say, "what would you like to drink," and list. And with ones who are prone to doing the denial, I don't even ask. I just bring them water or tea (whatever I'm having) and set it before them.

One of the easiest ways to avoid the three-step dance (or even one-step) is to give no choice at all. And once you grow up and become the host, you can do exactly that. It's a power, but one I try to use for good. Mostly.

[hobbitbabe]

Good for your mother.

Sometime when our kids were in elementary school, one of their grandmothers took them on a museum visit (they loved museums). Afterwards, she invited them to choose one thing each in the museum gift shop that she would buy them. They did, they thanked her, and when they got home they talked about how thoughtful that was of their grandmother.

In the next conversation the grandmother had with my partner (her grown child), the grandmother complained that one of the children had picked something expensive (I think it was around $35 CDN). My partner asked "Did you tell them that was more than you were willing to spend?" The grandmother huffed that they should have known, like there was something wrong with how they were being raised. We didn't agree.

[the_siobhan]

Oh I remember that post. That would drive me crazy. I would keep forgetting and getting it wrong and eventually I would yell at her in frustration.

[isis]

Now I want chocolate-covered mangoes.

And I also am glad I don't have to interact with people who are so unstraightforward (most of the time), and I hope I am straightforward most of the time. But it's a good reminder, I think, to examine my own behavior and remind myself that interactions are easiest when they are in plaintext, not code.

[krait]

Having read the "No" post and then your post, what leapt to mind immediately were the studies about persistent flirting, where men did not recognise female body language or indirect refusals, and misinterpreted the women as being encouraging... which was followed by another study that showed that, in another situation (asking about going to lunch), they understood 'indirect no' and nonverbal cues perfectly well. *eyerolling*

For all that I approve of and would like to live by the "No means no" dictum, I'm afraid I picked up enough female socialisation rules that I have a hard time doing it to anyone I will ever interact with again. I'm working on it, but the conjunction of these two posts has me thinking about how my culture theoretically values the straightforward approach but actually punishes (in probability) me for attempting to use it and has trained me not to. And that it rewards the other half for pretending to value straightforwardness, but not penalising them for breaking it from the other direction (not allowing others to be straightforward, and not allowing a straightforward answer to be the end of the matter).

[amaebi]

Interesting to read about those studies.

My own limited experience with the reactions of macking males when they're told "No" is that they tend to respond with verbal abuse, BTW. They're owed this-that-and-the-other, apparently.